Thread:Deathstalker666/@comment-1915529-20140221183807/@comment-3547390-20140520024627

Maybe I have given you the wrong impression for all the levels. If you asked anybody else they would say of course these missions are flawed, they are older FMs and they didn't have the capabilities of modern levels. My arguement is that they didn't have all the weird tricks like cutscenes and stuff, but they had the basic game to work off of. We have had successful levels, so that means others must be flawed. Especially when I haven't touched said modern levels to have my judgement tainted.

The Bathhouse, Waterlogged, Stowaway, and Grand Opening were all part of a contest revolving around stealing three trophies from a bathhouse. It was supposed to go on for a few months but was cut short to one month in order to finish up in time for school finals so younger editors wouldn't be at a disadvantage (which makes no sense as once again it was planned for a few months, meaning it would pass a good length beyond finals). What this resulted to was every designer rushing to get stuff done. Stowaway was released on one of the last days, so it is likely it was a rushed last minute entry (it did manage to get first place in the contest though). The reason why this level succeeded was because The Bathhouse was a mess of a level in terms of mechanics. Waterlogged came close, but part of the thing is that Stowaway had some nice buildings (it was a daytime mission, which is rare) while Waterlogged was just a ton of sewers with a couple rooms requiring the player to hunt for keys. Stowaway had some interesting architecture (one thing I have learned is that a lot of levels start with impressive sights and then fall apart as they progress), but it is hard to ignore broken objectives, sound errors, and tons of movement problems in the first room.

More Time to Foil Karass was made by some amatuer. They describe the look of the level as being an amatuer-looking shoebox exterior architecture and rudimentary sense of interior design. Mix that with the objective that can make the level unwinnable and you got yourself a dull mission.

Night at the Theatre isn't terrible by any account. I actually liked it better than Calendra's Cistern (it was the level I played right afterwards). It just is a little level with not much replay value as it is rather linear, not much challenge once you know what to do, and not that impressive as it is basically 8 rooms (5 being small offices, one outdoors, a hallway, and the main theatre). So we have the replayability of Tuttocomb's Tomb (a FM that is basically run down a corridor, get loot, run back, fight zombie).

I can't defend Ranstall Keep. A lot of people like the level, I hated it. The black and white gimick is cool at first, but gets old as you progress. I do have to say the number of hidden buttons and annoying things was toned down from Thief 1's version. If you were to play a version, skip the Thief 1 and play the Thief 2. Still, climbing up a difficult platform with strobe lights going off is extremely annoying, especially as if you fall you will land in a river that allows for only slow movement and can only be exited in this one location (Thief 1 was a bit less annoying here as you could ride the waterfalls up). A big gripe that was fixed from Thief 1 was the number of hidden buttons, as well as the location the level ends. In Thief 1 you are required to go to a wall that you would never think to go to due to it being a dead end. In Thief 2 there is an unfrobbable door so that the player actually has an idea that something lies beyond (still no idea why I can't leave by the main gate). Of course Thief 2 has a giant block in one room that is never explained. You are required to use your sword to bash things, yet it is so well hidden that you would never attempt to do such (there lies a clue that really isn't much of a clue as it is between a ton of stuff that is useless and is rather vague). You will find a mysterious secret in an anticlimatic event, all while being the only person left in a ghost town.

Errand Boy is basically a remake of the popular level Garrett's Revenge (which I also disliked). In comparison to the first, it was much better due to it not relying constantly on rope arrows and hidden items. Well, besides the whole keymaster's key which has been moved from the bathroom of his house to a secret corridor requiring you to bash a piece of wood in the ceiling. That took the cake after spending a good deal of time hunting for the tiny switch (perhaps my fault) that would open the secret passage to allow me to see his ghost. All this had audio clues that didn't work as it just happened to be in the same spot as the same audio would be playing above ground. Both will give you 10 or more keys. Maybe the editor should have focused more on the actual mission and less on a nude skin (which apparently took two weeks). Still it showed an interesting philosophy that if there is a female in a game, someone will make a naked version. This is what communities devote time towards and why we don't get many good levels.

Lady Whitman's Disease is a classic that I have no idea why is so popular. It is the traditional mansion mission done once again with broken english and hunting for a ton of keys. A Secret Affair was bashed for being a mansion mission. A Secret Affair may have been dull and uninteresting, but Lady Whitman's Disease was a lot worse in implementation.

Powerslaves is basically the Thief 2 version of Bloodflowers. Both are basically made to show their obsession to a band with little actual gameplay.

Creature Clash 2 isn't trying to be a real level, just a fun time waster. Gladiator is basically a ripoff of it (oddly enough that is one of the FMs I remember from my childhood). Creature Clash 2 can be fun, it just isn't anything of real value outside of having enemies fight.

Lord Buckhard is quite dull, I can't even say much about it as I forget most of it. I believe it had a ton of glitchy areas that made me go crazy and kill everybody. Plus I wanted to rush through it as I couldn't understand what anything was saying.

Benny's Dead is another great classic that I disagree with (my favorites seem to be very different from the norm). I'm sorry, I just don't want to hear enemies with sound files of popular memes. It just sounds like something that would be done in a jokewad and kills immersiveness. Especially when it is coming from creatures that were otherwise quite cool and the best part of the level. I felt everything else was rather dull and the game became disappointing after I couldn't finish the level due to triggering something before I got all the loot. Benny's Dead also has an annoying subterranean area where you have to stack crates, but have to ghost, meaning if you bump a crate too close to a wall you immediately lose.

So.. what have we learned. 4 levels needed to be incomplete. 4 levels are actually awesome classics and I just have no taste (just like my lack of taste for Calendra's Cistern and the evil wells of doom). Two aren't trying to be real levels. So out of 14 levels for Thief 2, 11 are actually excusable.

You know what isn't? The Assassin at Sir Ganrish House. There is so much terrible about that level that I don't know where to start.

EDIT: The next Thief 2 mission is called Stronghold. The good is that the atmosphere in the beginning areas is really nice, even if it is rather psychadellic. The bad is that forwards is backwards according to Garrett quotes and that the grammar makes this level rather confusing (it doesn't need that element to be confusing either). But the psychadellic trip could be excused if it wasn't for the whole premise, you are after a sword with some unique powers.

What do you think when you play Thief? Stealth, careful planning, gathering loot? According to this FM author, he thought tribal drums every time you see an enemy while promoting actively slaughtering everything in your path. With massive stockpiles of stuff, I don't understand how the readme even advises to hold onto your nine gas arrows (even if I got rid of them, I still had 11 invisibility potions and 18 healing potions). With a beginning involving stealth quickly giving way to Garrett talking about target practice, the whole level pretty much screams "kill, kill, kill" down psychadellic hallways of insanity where a bunch of those indestructible golden Cherubs will be chasing you. Of course, the second half also completely ignores any form of good design to make corridors of nonstop slaughtering. It's a shame, the beginning starts in a winter scene (I haven't seen anyone try such a thing before) and even some of the beginning puzzles were decent. The lesson... I don't know. This level might be good for LSD trips. Maybe that is why I still don't understand much of the plotline by the end, even after a part where I thought I did. For normal thievery or indeed even quality of the actual level, it isn't that good.